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Old 06-10-2011, 04:44 PM   #1
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I've decided to make more news posts to incite some more activity and discussion.

So on that note, the difficulty algorithm is making significant progress. The second part of the algorithm involves weighted notes based on the patterns around them. I just finished the formula for jacks. It looks something like this:

f(t,n,k) = k * (n^2*t^2-0.4n^2*t+0.0375n^2-nt^2+0.55nt-0.06n-0.1t+0.015)/(n^2*t-0.05n^2-nt+0.1n)

I would write this in a more descriptive form, but that might give away more information than I want to. But for those mathematically inclined, feel free to try and reverse engineer it! I dare you.
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Old 06-10-2011, 05:13 PM   #2
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i think... i think subjective rating is infinitely better than mathematical rating : )
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Old 06-10-2011, 05:31 PM   #3
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The mathematical rating will almost certainly not be perfect.

The only reason I'm using this algorithm is because there is nobody to take on the responsibility of assigning these difficulties manually, and since I'm bad at that, I have to use math to do the dirty work for me, even if it's a shoddy job.

Still, this looks pretty promising.
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Old 06-10-2011, 06:56 PM   #4
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To be honest I think there are FAR more important matters to be dealt with rather than assigning songs their difficulty with some ridiculous mathematical formula. A human rating charts will be FAR more effective than this algorithm anyway. Maybe you should try asking the general community if anybody is interested in the job formally and accept applications for the job. This is only constructive criticism, but I think focusing on all these little things rather than things that actually matter is ultimately going to be the downfall of this site. Also I think you should reconsider putting stats like grandscore into the game. Arch0wl has the right idea, stop being so stubborn. Just because YOU disagree with it doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the game cause chances are the majority is correct. It WILL bring more people to the site. The site has been on the decline ever since FFR has been brought back up, and unless you change your leadership strategy, I don't see things going on the up.

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Old 06-10-2011, 07:26 PM   #5
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Assigning ratings may be faster in the short-run, but it causes a lot of room for whining. With a difficulty algorithm it's non-negotiable and automatic.

Also Serpher, I've changed my position on grandtotals somewhat, so using me as an example may be a bad idea. While I think stargroup was too defensive in that FFR thread, he brought up a good point about grandtotals over MSN that changed my mind: when you have a solid base of 10-or-so people who have dedicated enough time to consistently be at the top of the grandtotals, it becomes even more of a disincentive than grades are.

Try not to label stargroup as stubborn and then look for everything that conforms to that label. We've weighed the pros and cons, and I think we're going to add some sort of weekly/monthly total. That way, new players who come in 2 months after they're added won't be so behind that their chances of getting anywhere are impossible. We're even considering the idea of adding badges for people who make the top of weekly/monthly.
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Old 06-10-2011, 08:03 PM   #6
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Assigning ratings may be faster in the short-run, but it causes a lot of room for whining. With a difficulty algorithm it's non-negotiable and automatic.
We definitely don't want the rating issue osu! has. Despite being able to clear around 70% of the 4.5/5's that I play, I still can't beat Pursuit [Hard] (4/5), and I've had that since osu! was new. There's also one Approved chart that had an unreleased first draft so hard that the game rated it 4.5 instead of 5.

Maybe there could possibly be a system to vote whether a chart seems overrated, underrated, or fine as it is that would be available to those who clear the chart. If those votes could be viewed by those about to play the chart, it could work decently so long as we don't have high skill players trolling the ratings.
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Old 06-10-2011, 08:33 PM   #7
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To be honest I think there are FAR more important matters to be dealt with rather than assigning songs their difficulty with some ridiculous mathematical formula. A human rating charts will be FAR more effective than this algorithm anyway.
None of which at the moment I can actually do other than make new charts for the game and conceptualize new features.

Difficulty ratings are extremely important because a bad scaling can discourage and confuse new players, turning them off from the game and possibly frustrating them.

I also don't want the difficulty ratings to be non-negotiable, but I did say that I wanted a base rating to work off of, because we don't have a person to assign ratings to each chart.

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Maybe you should try asking the general community if anybody is interested in the job formally and accept applications for the job.
I already did. The people who did accept the job didn't stick to their responsibilities, and so were kicked from their job. No one else accepted the job, which drove me to do this in the first place. If you can find a person who is formally willing to take on this responsibility AND is qualified, let me know.

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Also I think you should reconsider putting stats like grandscore into the game. Arch0wl has the right idea, stop being so stubborn. Just because YOU disagree with it doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the game cause chances are the majority is correct. It WILL bring more people to the site. The site has been on the decline ever since FFR has been brought back up, and unless you change your leadership strategy, I don't see things going on the up.
Sure, always pin me as the bad guy. This discussion about grand score should never even have come up, because we settled on this over a year ago.

It doesn't matter if it brings more people to the site. It's encouraging addiction rather than gameplay, and so personally I feel it is unethical to add it into the game.

On top of that, there is no real concrete evidence that it will bring more people to the site. The same way you say it could drive people to play more, it could also turn off players who are thinking "oh man I'll never reach that kind of total, why should I even bother?".

The bottom line is this: KBO is a community-driven game. Community is not contributing enough. This is in many ways out of my control (and why we have Arch0wl). The easiest way to fix the problem is for me to simply take control and make it more "staff-developed" rather than "community-developed," but if I do that more people are going to whine at me.

You guys repeatedly put me between a rock and a hard place (this happens far too often, see the arrow noteskin case). I can't please everyone, so I'm at least going to complete the vision I had for this place. Just because I disagree with an idea does not mean I'm closed-minded: I think through each decision I make very carefully and thoughtfully.
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Old 06-10-2011, 08:38 PM   #8
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damn, you have a good point archowl. subjective rating being better was only my first reaction that came into my head but considering it now, there have been MANY instances where (others') subjective ratings have caused discontent for me.

remember stepmania packs? for years we were seeing 11, 12, 13... then in whenever few years ago we got the DCP which promised a more diversified, expanded range of ratings and from then on we suddenly got 4 4 4 4 4 5 4 6 4 LOLUMAD?.

i was actually pretty annoyed by this seeing as being a mediocre player (as opposed to the skilled veterans who charted), i immediately noticed discrepancies that because they were too skilled to understand, that botched the ratings in and of themselves.

that brings the subject of: if we're to use subjective ratings, WHO are we specifically targetting for its use? in my anecdote above it's clear that top level players don't see difficulty the same way as average players do. however, ratings are a lot more helpful to developing players because there are more charts that would challenge them-- and of course the whole point of ratings is to discriminate between the easy and challenging charts. if top level players aren't challenged by anything, ratings should not be optimized for their use, nor are they qualified to issue ratings optimized for developing players. in this way, i think objective algorithm based ratings are good.

a census poll thingy or anything along those lines is a cool idea. objective ratings will always consistently be good, and higher numbers of subjective opinions on them should perfect them.
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Old 06-10-2011, 08:43 PM   #9
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you know now that i'm done with school and not busy anymore (yesterday i literally sat here in my chair thinking WTF am i doing not being stressed out) i wouldn't mind helping with the rating and stuff in some way... to provide the charting world with truly beginner level (and thus accurate) rated charts was exactly why i did ice frontier or whatever that song is. i'm a qualified developing player in regards to solo/keybeat : )

if you know any way i can help lmk.
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Old 06-10-2011, 08:45 PM   #10
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just read your post up there stargroup lol. i'm your dude. hire me.
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Old 06-10-2011, 08:57 PM   #11
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I don't really think grand total matters THAT much. All things considered, it's not like we're praising the top grand-totalers as the gods of KBO. But hey, not my problem; I think KBO will be okay without it too.

What is "k" in your equation? I assume t is time and n is # of notes










































so when's beta coming out
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Old 06-10-2011, 09:02 PM   #12
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What is "k" in your equation? I assume t is time and n is # of notes
k is an arbitrary factor based on particular cases when actually implementing the factors into the notes. The whole formula is multiplied by this constant though, so for the purposes of deconstructing the formula, you could ignore it.
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Old 06-10-2011, 09:34 PM   #13
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there have been MANY instances where (others') subjective ratings have caused discontent for me. remember stepmania packs? for years we were seeing 11, 12, 13... then in whenever few years ago we got the DCP which promised a more diversified, expanded range of ratings and from then on we suddenly got 4 4 4 4 4 5 4 6 4 LOLUMAD?.
You've hit on exactly why we're avoiding it.

I don't know if anyone remembers the pre-ITG DDR community, but most of the whining about difficulty came from people who wanted a particular 10 to be a 9, or a particular 9 to be a 10. Or an 8 to be a 9, and so on. All of the arguments about difficulty ratings were ego-driven, because people wanted to be able to say they passed a harder song than the other guy, or they wanted exclusive entry into the 10-footer club. Algorithmic systems remove most of the whining at the higher levels because they're going to have to dispute a formula and not some dude's opinion.

Yet for all of the whining about difficulty, they've lost sight of the fact that difficulty is the most important when you're doing the KBO equivalent of Cross Time or lower (10 or less on the current system), because at that level you're extremely new to the game and improvement is very, very slow. Every song is a possible fail on your part so you want to know what's going to kick your ass and what you can feasibly avoid bombing.
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Old 06-10-2011, 09:36 PM   #14
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None of which at the moment I can actually do other than make new charts for the game and conceptualize new features.
I'd say conceptualizing new features would be nice. Giving the site a bit more direction. I understand most of this is in BLasTs hands but idk where the project is going but I think it seems pretty obvious that KBO right now just needs some visual polishing.

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Difficulty ratings are extremely important because a bad scaling can discourage and confuse new players, turning them off from the game and possibly frustrating them.
I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't care if the difficulty was slightly off. I personally don't really have faith in a mathematical equation estimating the difficulty of a song better than a qualified person. People are going to bitch and complain regardless if the song is rated by an algorithm or a judge. It's either your algorithm sucks or the judge sucks.


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FUCK I already did. The people who did accept the job didn't stick to their responsibilities, and so were kicked from their job. No one else accepted the job, which drove me to do this in the first place. If you can find a person who is formally willing to take on this responsibility AND is qualified, let me know.
I didn't see anything regarding that. Would it be alright if I made an announcement and a sign up sheet on my server, or better yet give me SSH and MySQL access to KBO? You could look at the applicants.


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Sure, always pin me as the bad guy. This discussion about grand score should never even have come up, because we settled on this over a year ago.
I'm not saying you're "the bad guy" I'm offering you constructive criticism. I'm not saying I could do your job any better.


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It doesn't matter if it brings more people to the site. It's encouraging addiction rather than gameplay, and so personally I feel it is unethical to add it into the game.
User statistics don't encourage addiction. It creates a competitive atmosphere. If that causes a person to become addicted to the game then so be it but not putting it in is like opening a bakery and saying it's unethical to make terrific tasting pastries because people might get addicted to them and get fat.


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On top of that, there is no real concrete evidence that it will bring more people to the site. The same way you say it could drive people to play more, it could also turn off players who are thinking "oh man I'll never reach that kind of total, why should I even bother?".
I can guarantee if you brought competitive statistics to the site more people would join the site. Survey people and they'll tell you yes. You might as well not add any features cause there's no "real concrete evidence". Also the only people it would turn away are people who are playing for the competitive factor anyway. If they're quitting because of competition, they wouldn't be playing if stats weren't there in the first place cause there would be no competitive atmosphere anyway. If they didn't care about competition they won't care if people's stats are higher.


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The bottom line is this: KBO is a community-driven game. Community is not contributing enough. This is in many ways out of my control (and why we have Arch0wl). The easiest way to fix the problem is for me to simply take control and make it more "staff-developed" rather than "community-developed," but if I do that more people are going to whine at me.
For this game, the best you can do to make this a community-driven game is to survey the members, see what they want, then get people who KNOW how to implement what the community wants and are willing to, to do so. Not everybody knows how to make complex flash games or knows anything about databases and server side scripting. Until you have a good game people aren't going to want to spend time making files for it or rating files for it.

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Old 06-10-2011, 11:21 PM   #15
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f(b) = b/4
where b is bpm
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Old 06-11-2011, 09:00 AM   #16
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i would take on the job, if i had the time.
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Old 06-11-2011, 11:58 AM   #17
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Instead of having one person doing a subjective rating system, why not have the community do it as a whole?

People could put forth objections to current ratings (say, in a thread: "I think such-and-such should be easier than such-and-such"). Then, the community could play and vote on which of the songs is easier.

It would lessen possible trolling, be a little more non-negotiable than using just one person, and prevent the problem where an advanced judge would think that all easy songs are the same and thus not be able to judge them.

If the songs were not adjacent in difficulty, it might just take a few more polls to decide the proper order in the area. Multiple polls could be done to find this order:

song1 < song3 < song4 < song2 < song 5
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Old 06-11-2011, 12:24 PM   #18
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It's a good idea, and that's why we have a whole forum board for discussing the charts in the game.

However, you still need someone in charge. Someone has to decide, after all of the deliberations by the community, what the final decided rating is. This is what we are lacking: the person to take charge of this responsibility.
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Old 06-11-2011, 03:18 PM   #19
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Stargroup's right about that, and I'd like to add that letting the community as a whole decide something as much an ego-incentive as difficulty ratings is a bad idea. It's fine for the community to decide, say, what songs are in the game. But letting the community decide, essentially, the dividing line between "pro" and "good" or "good" and "mediocre" is a recipe for disaster. There will be endless petty conflicts about it that will bog down the priorities of the KBO team.
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:41 AM   #20
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Stargroup's right about that, and I'd like to add that letting the community as a whole decide something as much an ego-incentive as difficulty ratings is a bad idea. It's fine for the community to decide, say, what songs are in the game. But letting the community decide, essentially, the dividing line between "pro" and "good" or "good" and "mediocre" is a recipe for disaster. There will be endless petty conflicts about it that will bog down the priorities of the KBO team.
I definitely agree with the good points you've made, but those conflicts might not be as present if the system was composed of simple "is this song harder or is this song harder?" questions as opposed to the general "What is pro?" kinds of questions. A single person could be left to decide that (as mentioned by you guys already of course).
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